It's official, my veg are stunted

[alittletouched]

I had been suspicious when I posted the thread about my tomatoes being a foot tall and flowering. Now I am certain that all of my vegetation are stunted. I went to my farmer's market last Saturday and the zucchini plants for sale are huge, while mine still remain hardly bigger than the seedlings I bought them at two months ago. The problem is the soil and I know it. It's too dense, despite all of the money and effort put into amending the soil. I am determined now that if I'm going to spend all that money, I may as well do Mel's mix. Luckily the lettuce doesn't seem to care and neither does the cabbage (so far). But everything else from the tomatoes, to the corn, to the beans, to the cucumbers and zucchini aren't having it. Everything is green and healthy, but tiny. Obviously there's something wrong, and I'm prone to think it's the soil.

Hmm, I guess I only wrote this to vent, huh? Sorry, guys, you're the only people I have to talk about this. Everyone else I know isn't interested.

[Maryann]

Greetings,
I really don't have much (any) experience. are your boxes open bottom or do they have the weed clothe, I still have a tomato that I have been too lazy to plant and its starting to flower. Maybe they just need more growth space. How did you amend the soil? Mels mix is worth it and you only have to fluff and add a bit more for next year or between crops. I mixed mine on a big tarp and carefully got it in the boxes, unfortunetly it stormed 3 nights in a row and everything got compacted but thankfully, what I had planted was ok with it. The corner of the yard that I dug the heck out of, took a ton of rock out of, added peat moss and compost and have a corner of lettuce started. I'll just have to play that by ear since it is not Mels. I will keep you posted!:o

[gardengirl72]

You might try an organic fertilizer once per week and plan on adding lots of compost next year.

[Ozark Homesteader]

Where are you located? I saw a blog post from you about snow. If you are in the west, where until quite recently it was colder than usual, or the northeast, where it is still pretty cool, the plants you listed that aren't doing well could just not be getting enough warmth in your garden. Of course GardenG's idea of adding compost is great, but try adding black plastic, even just trash bags flattened out, around the stunted plants after you water well. Make sure you anchor them well with a little rock or soil, and keep them away from your cool-season plants like lettuce and cabbage.

[Computer Cowboy]

A few other questions: Have you tested your soil for PH and nutrient content? How much and how often do you water? When you amended your soil, what did you add and how much? How deep does your loose amended soil go? Do you see lots of earthworms when you dig? Do you know the history of your site (potential past chemical contaminants and such)? If there are problems in any of these areas, plants can have a pretty rough time.

[gardengirl72]

A few answers:

Have you tested your soil for PH and nutrient content?

Yes

How much and how often do you water?

Twice daily early morning and late evening.

When you amended your soil, what did you add and how much?

Any time I plant something I amend it with rabbit manure, compost, or organic fertilizer. I add a lot. If I am using an organic fertilizer I go by the directions. In my container I fertilize once per week depending on how strong the liquid organic fertilzer is. The stronger it is the less frequent I use it.

How deep does your loose amended soil go?
In a raised bed or container, I turn the fertilizer in the whole bed and distribute it through out.

In the ground, 12-18 inches.

Do you see lots of earthworms when you dig?

Yes

Do you know the history of your site (potential past chemical contaminants and such)?

Yes

If there are problems in any of these areas, plants can have a pretty rough time.

You don't want to grow any thing edible in the contaminated area. There are many ways to abate the problem, but it is specific by case.

[Computer Cowboy]

It sounds like you and I do things pretty much the same way, Patti. I'm hoping 'alittletouched' will respond to those questions as well, as I suspect his/her problem might relate to one or more of those conditions. What do you think?


A few answers:

Have you tested your soil for PH and nutrient content?

Yes

How much and how often do you water?

Twice daily early morning and late evening.

When you amended your soil, what did you add and how much?

Any time I plant something I amend it with rabbit manure, compost, or organic fertilizer. I add a lot. If I am using an organic fertilizer I go by the directions. In my container I fertilize once per week depending on how strong the liquid organic fertilzer is. The stronger it is the less frequent I use it.

How deep does your loose amended soil go?
In a raised bed or container, I turn the fertilizer in the whole bed and distribute it through out.

In the ground, 12-18 inches.

Do you see lots of earthworms when you dig?

Yes

Do you know the history of your site (potential past chemical contaminants and such)?

Yes

If there are problems in any of these areas, plants can have a pretty rough time.

You don't want to grow any thing edible in the contaminated area. There are many ways to abate the problem, but it is specific by case.

[MoniDew]

I would also be interested to know where (through whom) she purchased her plants. Some growers (non-organic) use growth restrictors on the plants, so they don't overgrow their pots while waiting to be purchased.

[gardengirl72]

Good point Monica.

[alittletouched]

Have you tested your soil for PH and nutrient content?

I have not, admittedly. I was trying to get a start on trying to grow anything at all, and when I started money was slim. I knew that amending the soil was necessary, so I began that way. Compost and added soil were supposed to be PH neutral, so it wouldn't change the existing soil too much. I know there is plenty of nitrogen because I grew legume crops in that area over the course of a year, green manure that was turned under when amended, and the natural clay has tons of minerals. Obviously that's not enough to go on when it comes to a true analysis, but the legumes were growing strong without amendments, I gave it a go.

How much and how often do you water?

Since I live in a rainy area I constantly finger-tested the soil to see if it needed more. In the summertime I often water twice a day to keep them from drying up, but temperatures have only been bad the last week or two.

When you amended your soil, what did you add and how much?

In my 4x8 bed I dug up the natural soil and amended it with a total of 8 bags of excellently rated compost and organic soil of varied sorts. I believe each bag was 1 to 2 cubic feet per.

How deep does your loose amended soil go?

It goes down about ten inches, but I wouldn't call it 'loose'. This is why I believe that the plants are stunted due to the soil conditions. I believe it isn't nearly friable enough for the root systems, and due to this I think starting from scratch on the perfect mix would be a better use of my money than amending the natural soil.

Do you see lots of earthworms when you dig?

Absolutely not. The area was recently leveled off for construction purposes (the house has only been complete for a year) and beneath the one or two inch topsoil they provided it is solid clay. I am farming red wigglers, currently, to help with soil conditions and composting.

Do you know the history of your site (potential past chemical contaminants and such)?

As far as I know, no chemicals were used in the area I'm using for planting. It was pretty well left alone during construction and it was leveled off afterwards to leave a clean slate. This isn't to say that something didn't happen.

If there are problems in any of these areas, plants can have a pretty rough time.

Absolutely they can, and clearly they are. But as such, I've determined that amending my soil for any sort of self-sufficiency in the near future would take entirely too much money for each box. It makes more sense, therefore, to use Mel's Mix on top of the existing soil, since I'd have to spend so many dollars anyway. Honestly, the soil is not loose enough, even though I nearly broke my back digging it all up and mixing it carefully, breaking up the clumps of clay by hand. If this is the result... well, I was expressing frustration that it was coming to nothing for me this year.

As for the question about the sources of my plants, it was a mixed venture. I bought most of the pre-grown seedlings from a local nursery that I have had a lot of experience with. I have had problems with only a a few of the seedlings from them. The romas were bought from a company claiming to be organic, and the remainder are all seeds I grew myself. The ones grown myself are the ones in the worst states. My guess is that they weren't getting enough from the soil from the get go. Like their roots aren't going anywhere. I use Dr. Earth's organic vegetable fertilizer for the whole bed as directed. The strangest thing is that some of the plants are peachy, like the romaine lettuce, the cabbage, the leeks, and the onions. The carrots look pretty strong, but I won't know how they fared until I dig them up. Everything else is green, but hasn't grown any bigger than when seedlings. And if there is a concern, yes I spaced them as directed.

I hope I don't sound too defensive, it just seems like all of the researching I did for this project is something of a waste. I am very glad I only did one bed this year, as all I learn from the experience will make the other beds much more successful when they come into play. I'm sorry for how long it took to reply, it's been a really crazy week.

PS - I've found that I can make Mel's Mix for about about $50 dollars a bed, which is about the same cost as all the bags of amendment I put in.

[Computer Cowboy]

Alittletouched, it sounds like that 'pure clay' soil of yours is your biggest problem. We have soil like that here as well. Hard and impermeable as concrete (that's why we build our houses out of it!).

In my experience, it can take years and quite alot of effort to create any sort of decent soil conditions when dealing with that stuff. Raised beds filled with mostly imported (and often spendy) materials are an option, but you'd still have to address the lack of drainage underneath them. Think flower pots without any holes.

If you're going to try to amend what you've got, I think it'll require way more amendments than you're now using.

If you've worked 8 cubic feet of amendments into a 4 x 8 bed a foot deep, your bed is now only 25% good stuff and 75% clay. Getting the clay content down to 50% would take 32 bags of bought compost, which still wouldn't give you great soil.

Are there any free sources of amendments near where you live? Horse stables with well-rotted manure piles, for instance? Alot of times, owners of those places are thrilled to have you haul off their waste.

Another cheap remedy to consider is sand, either dug up from a nearby riverbed or cheaply purchased from your local concrete company. I know, I know...several respected gardening books say to never add sand to clay soil, claiming that you're creating a mixture similar to cement. Horsefeathers. I've added LOTS of sand to all my beds and it has really opened up the soil, at least as much as all the added organic matter has.

In any event, that 'pure clay' soil is never going to give you anything but frustration until you find a way to fix it. My beds, down to a depth of around 18 or 20 inches, currently contain less than 10% of the native clay soil, but it took a really long time to get to this point. If I wasn't such a tightwad, I could have possibly bought enough stuff to get there quicker, but I try to use free materials as much as possible.

I hope some of this is helpful.

[alittletouched]

It does help, Cowboy, quite a bit. We're tightwads together, ha ha. It does sound to me that buying the right kind of soil will be cheaper and less frustrating in the long run. Does having an inch or two of topsoil over the clay and beneath the bed allow drainage, you think? The bed are also on a slight incline, which causes all excess water to run toward a drain in the corner of the yard, would the incline also help with drainage from beneath the beds? Thanks so much!

[gardengirl72]

Do you mean fine sand? Like for sand boxes? Wood chips can help ammend the soil as well. Worms are key. I pull a weed up and a worm pops out with it. I think it is a great idea to try and gather a wide variety of organic material like grass clippings from neighbors, newspaper, wood chips, sand, shredded cardboard. Waste is energy misplaced. So much of my household waste is dispursed throughout my property, from a worm bin for kitchen scraps to raised beds where I am building soil. If you can you should consider transplanting some of your plants into containers with organic potting soil and work on the soil in your raised bed. You might also want to get your next bed set up and fill it with some of the soil you have in the one bed and work them both. One thing I can say is that if you follow thru and pull it off, you're going to have some great looking biceps.

[Sinfonian]

Hey there. Sounds like you've gotten great advice. Don't worry that it's the same advice you followed from us last year. It takes several years to transform clay into good soil. You're part of the way there. If you started a compost pile last year, expand it. If not, make the biggest one you can and do what Patti suggests. You'll be fine in the long run, and in the meantime stunted veggies are better than none.

Good luck and keep at it!

[Computer Cowboy]

Do you mean fine sand? Like for sand boxes?

I just dig it out of a nearby arroyo, so it's a mixture of everything from very fine to very coarse. Seems to work fine, though. I'm ashamed to admit that in my less green moments I've also bought some sand from the local concrete company, which carries several different grades. I just ask for the cheapest.


Worms are key. I pull a weed up and a worm pops out with it.

Amen! If worms don't like the soil, plants won't either. After a nighttime rain, the streets of my town are covered with hundreds of worms. I wander around at dawn with a coffee can and gather them for the gardens, which is one of the reasons that my neighbors are certain I'm nuts.


I think it is a great idea to try and gather a wide variety of organic material like grass clippings from neighbors, newspaper, wood chips, sand, shredded cardboard.

Yep, I keep a close watch on the neighbors, and pounce whenever they're about to throw away sacks of yard waste and such. Some of them use too many lawn chemicals for my liking, but I grab the stuff from everyone else.


Waste is energy misplaced.

Another brilliant Garden Girl quote to steal!

[Computer Cowboy]

It does help, Cowboy, quite a bit. We're tightwads together, ha ha. It does sound to me that buying the right kind of soil will be cheaper and less frustrating in the long run. Does having an inch or two of topsoil over the clay and beneath the bed allow drainage, you think? The bed are also on a slight incline, which causes all excess water to run toward a drain in the corner of the yard, would the incline also help with drainage from beneath the beds? Thanks so much!

I tend to get pretty brutal with the compacted clay soil where I'm putting in a new raised bed. It might be overkill, which I'm definitely prone to, but I till it down about ten inches deep, and add alot of amendments, almost as if it were going to be a planting bed itself. I have this half-baked, totally unproven theory that this not only improves drainage and soil air content, but helps with deep moisture storage and worm migration into the new bed. I have no idea whether this is actually true, but that never stops me from pursuing half-baked, totally unproven theories.